Techno-Immortalists Exploit Dying Woman To Peddle Pseudo-Science and Threaten Critics

Subject(s):

There is quite an uproar among the cryonicists at the moment about Kim Suozzi, a young woman who is about to die from a fatal brain tumor and is seeking donations to fund a cryosuspension she irrationally wants but cannot afford on her own. Here is one of the more thoughtful and sympathetic pieces I found in the online precincts where Robot Cultists of the techno-immortalist sect gather on the topic. In a nutshell, it proposes that even the True Believers and guru-wannabes who are drawn to cryonics and uploading and nano-santa fantasies can surely see the PR benefit of occasional charitable giving, especially when it offers up an occasion to provide a photogenic face and sentimental martyr for The Cause.

Of course, if you ask me, cryonics is nothing but the flabbergasting fantasy that a severed head frozen or vitrified in a misty metal dewar will one day rise from the dead with the help of programmable swarms of nanoscale magic machines that can make anything for nothing, including eternally young robot bodies with comic book sooper-powers, or that "info-souls" interred within decapitated hamburgerized remains will eventually be "uploaded" into cyberspatial heaven, either to wallow in nanobotic sexy-slavebotic treasure caves in the asteroid belt or online until the universe dies and all the Robot Cultists exit into adjacent universes to party on for all eternity as more or less infinitely techno-amplified variations of their most infantile ids, all under the ministrations of a history-ending post-biological perfectly-parental sooper-intelligent Robot God they think their friends are coding even as I write these words. As I said, "The Cause."

Now, I have been a cheerful atheist for a quarter of a century and tend to be very critical of the transcendentalizing claims made by the techno-utopian faithful on those terms, but I am also a teacher of critical thinking at the university level and tend to be very skeptical of pseudo-scientific hucksters peddling homeopathy and mystic crystal revelations and cryonics scams on those terms as well. Nevertheless, I am a champion of science not scientism, I don't believe all reasonable values are reducible to scientific claims nor that all reasonable belief is warranted on the terms that warrant instrumental claims in the service of prediction and control. I am a pragmatist and a pluralist, defending science in its proper precinct and on the terms that actually do define and sustain it, while also valuing moral, ethical, legal, cultural, political values, beliefs, and practices on their own, different terms.

Because I am a pluralist, I do not get particularly exercised about the religious beliefs of others any more than I do the differences in their aesthetic tastes, even while I am quite happy to testify to my own irreligiousness and taste on my own terms for the good reasons I think I have for them. And this is because I happen to think diversity is as important as equity in secular multicultural world. However, I strongly disapprove efforts of religious or moral or aesthetic minorities to mis-apply the beliefs proper to those domains in places where they are injurious, pretending religious faith can do the work of consensus science or that proselytizing moralism can do the work of political reconciliation, for example. If the Robot Cultists held fast to the empirical reality that they really amount to a marginal sub(cult)ural fandom devoted to certain works of science fiction and certain pieces of futurological scenario-sketching that amount to gawky inept science fiction, too, then I would have no problem whatsoever with them -- let a bazillion flowers bloom, I always say.

But when Robot Cultists try to pretend they are engaged in a proper scientific project, or serious developmental policy-making enterprise, or constitute some kind of political "movement" I absolutely must protest what is at best a deranging confusion on their part and at worst a systematic fraud. As I have written at length elsewhere, to the extent that the superlative futurological discourse of the Robot Cultists is engaging in something more pernicious and fraudulent it is not only dangerous on its own terms (as comparably ridiculous but well-organized marginal reactionary formations like the neocons also once were) but it can be analyzed as a clarifying extreme form of more prevailing tendencies to scientistic-reductionism, techno-triumphalism, consumer-fetishism, imperial-developmentalism, and unsustainable-technofixation in the governing public discourse of elite-incumbent neoliberal corporate-militarism, not to mention provides a pathological exhibition of the deceptive and hyperbolic marketing and promotional norms and forms that now suffuse our contemporary imagination.

The story of Kim Suozzi was brought to my attention earlier this weekend. This was my immediate off-the-cuff reaction to it:

"Well, lots of people seem to turn to religion under the stress of such circumstances and, crusty atheist though I am, I am the last one to deny people the real consolations they find wherever they find them, be it in poetry, be it in drunkenness, be it in lovers' embraces, be it in Woody Allen flicks. If a person finds their consolation in a scam -- in thinking they've bought the Brooklyn Bridge or from an evangelical promise of life everlasting for the one who weighs down the collection plate enough -- it remains a scam, however, and however consoling to some, if it offers itself up to public scrutiny, it invites exposure as the scam it is."

As I said, I am an absolutely convinced and comfortable atheist, but it's not like I would go to the sickbed of some dying kid who took a real measure of consolation from a priestly promise that she would soon be plucking a lyre on a cloud with baby Jesus and try to tear that consolation from her by airing my many refutations of theological faith in my most acerbic eye-rolling manner. That would be an awful thing to do, if you ask me.

However, if religionists declared their published articles of faith were beyond critical scrutiny altogether because of the consolation they bring the faithful, I am quite content to argue to the contrary that a critical culture of reasonable public deliberation provides consolations no less forceful and abiding than those of the various not-always-compatible faiths that say the same. And since, for at least some of us, religious faith does more harm than good to our sense of agency, sanity, and equanimity, a free secular diverse society will secure and celebrate the testimony of those whose experience this is as much as it does those who would testify to the power of their various faiths. And those who offer up their beliefs to public scrutiny as if on the terms that prevail over our adjudication of competing scientific or political claims should not be surprised to encounter criticisms they dislike or are unaccustomed to because they spend so much of their time hob-nobbing among fellow True Believers.

In a fairly characteristic bit of self-serving rationalization, one high-profile techno-immortalist Giulio Prisco writes:

"Are we totally sure, with absolute certainty, that cryonics will work? No, of course we cannot be totally sure until the first cryonics patient is revived. There could be unexpected road blocks, not only technical but also political… Are we positively optimist, with reasonable confidence, that cryonics will work? You bet. Repairing biological machines (yes, we are biological machines) damaged by extreme freezing is not feasible at this moment, but there is no reason to deny its feasibility in-principle, and there is ample scientific evidence that it may be possible someday soon and today’s cryonics patients may wake up in a world with very advanced life extension options. We are not offering certainty of immortality, but a very good chance at a very long life in a better world, and I hope to meet Kim [Suozzi] there and buy her a drink."

Prisco seems to expect congratulations for conceding he is less than absolutely certain the cryonics scam will work. Wow, somebody get that man a blue ribbon from the science fair! Einstein famously declared that "As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." For those of us who respect science and reason, Einstein's chestnut reminds us that even well-warranted empirical descriptions provide us with confidence, but that certainty is something that only logic affords -- and in a way that need not offer us the confidence of scientific results at all. That Prisco and other Robot Cultists admit of less than total certainty for their enterprise (such as it is) is no striking concession at all but the blank minimum demanded of those who would even pretend to reasonableness. And when they go on to declare themselves "positively optimistic" and "reasonably confident" about the prospects of their techno-immortalization schemes -- even as they admit that these procedures are not now feasible, even as they admit that our ignorance in the relevant fields may yield "unexpected" results -- one has to ask just where all this confidence is supposedly coming from!

Given how little we even remotely know that we would absolutely need to know to accomplish what the techno-immortalists hope for, given how little reason we have to assume that our ignorance will always be filled with knowledge congenial to the techno-immortalists, given how many intermediary and auxiliary techniques would have to be developed in how many areas with what perfect efficacy always in ways congenial to the techno-immortalists, given how many objections and problems are raised by so many actual experts and scientists in the fields related to the desired techniques, given the conspicuous wish-fulfillment fantasizing in evidence here, given the citation of faith-based conceits (we will "meet… in a better world"), given the argumentative weight borne by metaphors and loose analogies ("biological machines"), all of which utterly suffuse techno-immortalist discourse, given all this and more, not only is it NOT reasonable to declare oneself confident that techno-immortalism will succeed (even while oh so generously conceding the patently obvious fact that it isn't a "done deal"), but obviously it is only reasonable to greet the rosy woozy hyperbolic claims of the techno-immortalists with the most extreme skepticism possible and even with outright ridicule. I cannot say I agree that there is anything particularly "optimistic" about death-denialism or pseudo-scientific credulity either. Return if you will to the second paragraph of this essay if you need reminding of the sorts of visions in which Robot Cultists feel so "reasonably confident" and some reason why an actually reasonable person might find ridicule an appropriate response to this nonsense.

When I quoted Giulio Prisco a moment ago I omitted a passage that I want to re-introduce now in its context and talk about a little bit by way of a conclusion of this piece: "There could be unexpected road blocks, not only technical but also political: I am afraid the deathist killers (see below) may try something, and therefore I think cryonics should be geographically diversified, with new options beyond reach of deathist politicians and admins."

Deathist killers? Deathist politicians?

Who are these "Deathists" supposed to be, of what does their apparently vast conspiracy consist, what is this "something" they might nefariously "try"? I confess that Prisco's own definition provided in the piece itself is not exactly helpful, when he writes, "Deathists are those politically correct morons and stupid a**holes who think death is good."

As it happens, just as Prisco is well pleased to make cynical use of the face of the suffering misguided Kim Suozzi to illustrate his techno-immortalist sect of the Robot God, he is also eager to give a face to the "Deathist Menace."

Who could it be?

Well, let's just say it's the name I sign on the dotted line.

Hi! Pleased to meet you: It's Dale Carrico, "deathist killer"!

While I daresay I fail to qualify as "politically correct" according to many of the current definitions of that rather troubled designation, I'm sure one could indeed find many who would attest to the correctness of the designation "stupid a**hole." And while I cannot even pretend to believe that "death is good" (it's not exactly something I'm looking forward to), neither will I pretend to believe that there aren't many evils worse than mortality in the world nor to believe the fact of my inevitable eventual death spoils everything that is good about life for me. I do think that coming to terms with our mortality (like coming to terms with the ineradicable contingency of human experience and finitude of human capacities) is an indispensable step toward our arrival at reasonable maturity and sanity in the world, and that in the absence of this step human beings waste an enormous amount of energy in denial and do an awful lot of harm in compensation. While I am a big believer in, you know, medicine and science to make people's lives better I certainly don't think that means we should waste time with techno-immortalist pseudo-science.

I have questioned the coherence of this "deathist" term in writing, so perhaps this is enough to make me one of them in the eyes of the Robot Cultists. Since techno-immortalists seem to think that all they have to do is make some peppy "can-do" noises and wait for "technology" to deliver them everlasting life in paradise, perhaps they mistake my conceding the obvious truth of the major premise of the most venerable syllogism in logic (which I have been known to teach to undergraduates), namely, that "All humans are mortal," as a kind of death-compelling magic spell like Rowling's "Avada Kedavra," and this is enough to make me some kind of "killer" in their eyes.

As Prisco's designated "deathist"-in-residence I must say I react with a certain discomfort to the clarion call in the title of his piece to "F*ck Death and Deathists" whether that is supposed to be a sexual solicitation OR a call to do me in. And he calls ME a "deathist"! Be that as it may, to the extent that any of that is designed to discourage my criticism of the pseudo-science and techno-transcendental distractions and delusions of the Robot Cultists, I remain, for now, thoroughly unimpressed.

Also posted at Amor Mundi.

Comments

I'd like to know more about your "scam" libel.

Because the definition implies that the people who receive the money have somehow deceived the donors and pocketed it for themselves. The last time I checked, we have laws about defamation.

I have the uncompensated task of accounting for the money raised by the Society for Venturism for Miss Suozzi, a chore I certainly don't need on top of my paying day job. But I've taken it on any way because I believe in cryonics' goals, even if the current technology probably won't work. I belong to the faction in cryonics based on making it work, so I have substantial disagreements with the cryonicists who consider bad futurist fantasies from the 1980's like "nanotechnology," "mind uploading" and "the singularity" as compelling reasons to sign up. In fact I submit that those people probably signed up for bad reasons, compared with reasons we can make now based on progress in the real science of connectomics. Refer to neuroscientist Sebastian Seung's Connectome.

Below I've pasted my generic information sheet, with some modifications, for people who want to read the cryonicists' side of the story:

Cryonicists want to develop “medical time travel” or an ambulance ride across time to try to benefit from the better medical capabilities of future societies.

Refer to:

1. General but outdated background information on the idea, mainly of historical interest now:

The Prospect of Immortality (1964), by Robert Ettinger:

http://www.cryonics.org/book1.html

2. “Cryopreservation of rat hippocampal slices by vitrification” (a peer-reviewed scientific paper):

http://www.21cm.com/pdfs/hippo_published.pdf

“Microscopic examination showed severe damage in frozen–thawed slices, but generally good to excellent ultrastructural and histological preservation after vitrification. Our results provide the first demonstration that both the viability and the structure of mature organized, complex neural networks can be well preserved by vitrification. These results may assist neuropsychiatric drug evaluation and development and the transplantation of integrated brain regions to correct brain disease or injury.”

3. Mike Darwin’s Chronosphere blog:

http://chronopause.com/

Mike goes back nearly to the beginnings of cryonics in the late 1960’s, and his blog offers a metaphorical gold mine of information, including references to a lot of scientific papers, about the field and its current but probably surmountable problems.

4. MIT neuroscientist Sebastian Seung defends cryonic suspension as a feasible scientific-medical experiment in his book Connectome, and I have it on good authority that he plans to speak at Alcor’s conference in Scottsdale, AZ, next month:

http://alcor.org/conferences/2012/index.html

http://hebb.mit.edu/people/seung/

http://www.amazon.com/Connectome-How-Brains-Wiring-Makes/dp/0547508182

http://www.scribd.com/doc/100220308/Aschwin-de-Wolf-s-review-of-Connecto...

Do Please Sue Me

I could use some cash to pay off my student loan debt.

Medical Time Travel

So this is the new marketing pitch for cryonics? Medical time travel? Are you deliberately trying to emphasize the impossibility of it all? I mean, time travel, as any sane person knows, is impossible. And as any sane person also knows, when you're dead, you're dead. They can make molds of your face and make all the wax sculptures of you they want, down to the finest detail, but you're still dead and all they have is a blob of wax. They can animate it to move like you. They can give it a personality to act like you. They can give it a brain to think like you. But you're still dead you idiot, and all they have is a cool new toy. Only a deluded idiot would ever sign up for cryonics, telling people there's a chance they will wake up far in the far future is a lie -- therefore you're running a scam.

"any sane person also knows,

"any sane person also knows, when you're dead, you're dead"

Many sane people don't seem to appreciate the fact that current legal definitions of death differ by country (if not by state or province), and the healthcare science establishment accepts that "death" is predicated on "irreversiblity" and that "irreversibility" is sometimes predicated on current technological limitations.

Many of the veterans of the Iraq War walking and talking today have survived conditions that would have been considered "irreversible" by the best surgeons and medical personnel fielded by the US military during the Vietnam War.

This is just my humble little opinion, but I don't think you can exactly lump the Vietnam-era soldiers who were declared "dead" in the OR because they suffered "irreversible" brain injuries in 1968 to the Iraqi suicide bombers whose bodies were strewn across the street in a million and one pieces in 2004.

"Dead" changes, at least for some. If you don't believe that, then wait.

The fact that there are people today with stories of tunnels and white light after being declared "clinically dead" should be proof enough that our medico-scientific definition(s) of death are pretty crap.

Go ahead and change the definition of death

Go ahead and change the definition of death any way you want. The dead will still be dead. And the living, eventually, will be too. Cryonics is basically an implementation of Pascal's Wager for a fee. It's a scam. Alcor and all the other cryonics organizations are like the medieval Catholic Church selling indulgences for passage to eternity. People need to feel that there's more than just this shitty world we have, that there's something better waiting for them. It's evil to take advantage of these bugs in human programming. As a promoter of the cryonics scam, you're evil, too.

"The dead will still be

"The dead will still be dead."

If some healthcare professionals chose to determine death in every case by strict adherence to 50-year-old legal criteria and medical technology, they'd be sued for malpractice. They might even be charged with manslaughter.

If you want to get an idea of what "giving up prematurely" looks like, take a peek at what amounts to hospice care in sub-Saharan Africa.

"And the living, eventually, will be too."

True enough.
I have a hunch, however, that an organ in which most cells are viable, no tissue is necrotic, and the ischemia cascade has been halted (and ultimately reversed) is in fact *not dead*.

Considering that such organs have been successfully transplanted and life-sustaining for whole organisms, I'd say that's damned good evidence that the organ is not "dead" in any sense of the word. That applies to a brain as much as it does to a kidney; because modern cryopreservation techniques also preserve neural and synaptic connections in the case of a brain, there is no reason to assume that the long-term memories embedded in those structures are not also preserved.

"It's a scam. Alcor and all the other cryonics organizations are like the medieval Catholic Church selling indulgences for passage to eternity."

Alcor is a certified 501(c)3 nonprofit organization.

"you're evil, too."

I'm convinced that the root of all great evils perpetrated upon society is ignorance. I have a feeling that future generations will see that with a greater degree of clarity than you.

BTW: Worth mentioning that

BTW:
Worth mentioning that someone looking for an exemplar of religious zealotry could do no better than to read the above comments posted (appropriately enough) by an individual who calls him/herself "SmarterThanYou."

Yawn

Wake me when you're not a blithering idiot.

Pseudo-Scientific Faith-Based Initiatives

There is no point in sparring with a True Believer, you tend to arrive all too soon at flinging "I know you are but what I am I?" at one another until everybody is much more tired but nobody more enlightened.

The only thing anybody can say with warranted confidence is that cryonics is a rather elaborate corpse disposal method -- like getting embalmed and then buried, like getting shot into orbit post mortem, like getting compressed into a diamond on a ring for a spouse to remember you by, like getting mummified and interred in the immortality-engine of an Egyptian pyramid. People of faith often declare that these rituals facilitate eventual resurrection, transcension, heavenly ascension. As an atheist I cannot claim that such claims hold much allure for me -- but I don't feel particularly inclined to argue with those who want to believe such things, any more than I would argue with a child who believes in Santa Claus. But what I disapprove are efforts to treat articles of faith as scientific hypotheses or to mistake religious proselytizing as serious political policy or stakeholder reconciliation.

It is hardly surprising to discover that not everything Robot Cultists believe is false (most of what everybody believes is factually true else communication not to mention survival, even with the wrongheaded, with the mad, and with the indoctrinated, would scarcely be possible), but what matters when it comes to the scientifically warranted beliefs and the scientifically legible concerns that are deployed by Robot Cultists will be the ways in which they are inevitably slotted into techno-transcendentalizing narratives that leave all facts behind and leap into pseudo-science and fantasy very quickly indeed.

There are, after all, plenty of real concerns among computer scientists about user-friendly coding and network security without going off the deep end and starting to handwave about Friendly AI and a history-shattering Singularity as half-rapture half-apocalypse existential risk. There is plenty that is promising for materials science, electronics, sensor technologies, biomedical techniques arising from discoveries in molecular biology and at the nanoscale without going off the deep end and starting to handwave about swarms of robust reliable programmable room-temperature self-replicating nanobots that can make nearly anything for almost nothing. There are plenty of lives to be saved by struggling to make clean water available to people in overexploited regions of the world and advocate for single-payer healthcare and demand more public investment in science education and medical research without losing a single second and diverting a single dollar to techno-immortalist outfits like SENS, cryonics, or -- even worse, because conceptually utterly incoherent -- "uploading" nonsense. What is distinctive in the discourse of the Robot Cult will be the organization of modest or superficially scientific observations through theological/ mythological frames and narratives in the service of transcendental aspirations that have nothing to do with consensus science or actual progressive development, often drawing on techniques from marketing and PR to do so.

Not content to engage in endless cynical sanewashing PR in their terminology (we're not talking about immortality but "indefinite healthspan," we're not talking about eugenics but "enhancement"!), adherents of the techno-immortalist sects of the Robot Cult share with anti-abortion extremists the tendency to imply that the those who disagree with their marginal views are "deathists" or "anti-life," and also an opportunistic recourse to befuddlements introduced by technodevelopmental disruption to flog their (different) marginal and counter-intuitive aspirations -- as when anti-abortionists exploit sonogram imagery to render more apparently plausible pseudo-scientific "partial birth abortion" or when techno-immortalists exploit revival from once-fatal heart attacks to render more apparently plausible pseudo-scientific "cryonics" or "uploading."

Part flim-flam, part marketing hype, part newfangled theology, the Robot Cult -— whether in its eugenicist transhumanoid sects, or in its dead-ender AI (artificial imbecillence) Singularitarian nerd-rapture sects, or in its vitamin supplement replacement parts shiny robot body soul-migration techno-immortalist sects, or in its genies-in-a-bottle nano-cornucopiast sects, or in its greenwashing denialist “geo-engineering” sects —- takes all the lies of crass commercialism, all its infomercial boner pills and anti-aging kremes and endless promises of consumer ecstasy, and then sets the volume dial on eleven, turning what was just ugly stupid embarrassing commonplace circus-barker deception and crack-pottery into full on fulminating faith.

Drawing on deeply disseminated figures and conceits of mythology and theology (eden, prometheus, golem, invincible armor, the philosopher’s stone, rapture, love potion, sorcerer’s apprentice, excalibur, the fountain of youth, frankenstein, onmipotence- omnibenevolence- omniscience-) whose historically-weighted intuitive force reassures them, together with the fervency of the never-changing professions of their fellow-faithful, Robot Cultists keep telling themselves and telling us —- in a tune that never really changes year after year after year even while they also congratulate themselves on their unflappable embrace of “accelerating change” —- that there is some substance in their faith-based initiative, that their roseate “The Future” is real and that in it they can be young and rich and invulnerable and right and cared for forever.

Any child of two already knows where the Robot Cultists are coming from. We have serious problems in this world and we need serious people to help solve them. Pseudo-scientific wish-fulfillment fantasists might be enjoying the haze they’re in, like any techno-fetishizing bourgeois consumer dupe, but they are part of the problem and not any real solutions. For all the put-upon litigious sputtering, the Robot Cultists are lucky I restrain myself enough to use the gentle word "scam" to describe their enterprise.

Scammers

"like getting mummified and interred in the immortality-engine of an Egyptian pyramid."

A thought like this occurred to me when I first encountered cryonics. When I step back a bit from my utter disdain for these fools, part of me is legitimately fascinated by them. How can people in the 21st century still believe that properly preserving a dead body will grant exclusive access to some kind of afterlife? There are many answers to this question, of course, but the one I can relate to best is that cryonics plays to the human weakness for right-skewed wagers like lottery tickets, penny stocks, slot machines, equity options, wagers that lose almost all the time but payoff big when they hit. We're just suckers for these kinds of bets.

Of course far more people play the lottery than play cryonics. I think this is because one needs to be not only narcissistic but also conversant with science to be duped into signing up for cryonics. Most people know when you're dead, you're dead. Maybe you go to heaven or whatever, but there's no coming back to life on Planet Earth, i.e., the odds of winning the cryonics game are exactly zero. Why play such a game? they ask. But take someone conversant with science who is impressed by the patina of sciency white lab coats, and 'studies' and 'experiments' and 'papers' and content-free arguments that begin and end with assertions like 'the laws of physics as we currently understand them permit the possibility that a frozen corpse could be reanimated' you can convince that person there is some non-zero chance of being reanimated based on whatever chain of just-so possibilities, however remote. Of course, they have to want to believe first, but organizations like Alcor are in business to provide the rationalizations required to get the right kind of person into the fold.

Since I think cryonics organizations aim to exploit a human weakness for a fee, I applaud all attempts to call them out. I enjoy your writing, Dale, and I enjoy your blog as well. Keep up the pressure on these clowns. I'm glad someone is.

"...tend to arrive all too

"...tend to arrive all too soon at flinging 'I know you are but what I am I?' at one another..."

So far in these comments, only *one side* has called the other "evil," accused them of perpetrating a "scam," and used derogatory name-calling. Anybody who's actually read these comments can see that what you're implying is a false equivalency.

"People of faith often declare that these rituals facilitate eventual resurrection, transcension, heavenly ascension."

The only person alluding to such preposterous nonsense is you.

"what I disapprove are efforts to treat articles of faith as scientific hypotheses or to mistake religious proselytizing as serious political policy or stakeholder reconciliation."

Something on which we can whole-heartedly agree.

Since science involves empirical findings derived by the scientific method and publication of those findings in unpartial, indepdent, peer-reviewed journals for critical scrutiny by the scientific community, *let's see you actually say something scientific for once.*

Anybody who doesn't have a dog in this fight can see that all you've posted so far are ultra-hyperbolic personal attacks and intellectually lazy ridicule.

That's not science.

If I were in your shoes and someone started blabbing on about homeopathy or ESP, I could point to reviews and studies published to demolish their claims.

Yes, Dale, scientists have actually spent the *time* and *effort* to investigate (and ultimately disprove) those claims.

Science doesn't work by taking it for granted that something is false just because you personally think it's a load of crap.

If science worked the way you think it does, then I'd urge every person within sight of this post to take up a letter-writing campaign and warn the editorial boards of scientific journals not to publish any research connected to cryonics.

Be succint; tell them, "Cuz Dale sez so."

> How can people in the 21st

> How can people in the 21st century still believe. . .?

Because although the motivation to believe hasn't changed since
prehistory (and is still the same old familiar emotional force driving
whatever newer rationalizations have been invented to post-hoc
"justify" the belief), the rationale **has** changed in a way
that seems oh-so-scientific and up-to-date to a modern educated
layman -- if you squint a bit and don't look too straight at the target.
Especially, I guess, if you're a computer programmer (or a
mathematician or theoretical physicist or somebody who does science
mostly by putting marks on paper or typing on a keyboard).

What I mean is that the modern believers say that since living
organisms are "merely" machines, and since their relevant state
should be characterizable in the information-theoretic terms in
which one characterizes the (abstract) state of an executing
computer program (ignoring the **vast** quantitative gulf between
the "parts count" and complexity of any living organism --
nanotechnology in the real world! -- and any merely human artifact,
including the most complex computer chip or computer
program), then if you can preserve the "information" (that's the
modern, scientific part that the Egyptians didn't know about --
Rameses didn't have the privilege of meeting Claude Shannon,
dontcha know), then you've got a Scientific(TM) shot at
recreating life and/or consciousness from that preserved
"information".

It's just like restarting a process from its saved state
in a time-shared computer system. User doesn't even notice
it's happening! ;->

"then you've got a

"then you've got a Scientific(TM) shot at
recreating life and/or consciousness from that preserved
'information'."

Jim, what a fascinating imagination you have!
I've no doubt that there are some people out there who agree with the creative scenario you described. Although "information theoretic death" is an interesting concept (and seems *conceptually* sound despite our vanishingly tiny amount of hard scientific knowledge regarding human consciousness), I'd argue that the scenario you propose is not falsifiable because we don't currently possess the means by which to scientifically address that possibility. Of course, I can't discount it completely because we don't have evidence either way.

However, what *is* falsifiable, now and in the foreseeable (as opposed to imaginary) future is reversible cryopreservation (via vitrification) of living, viable whole organs. Reversible preservation of cellular viability has been successfully demonstrated in vitro in tissue slices and, most importantly, in whole (transplanted) organs.

At the moment, a significant obstacle to successful application of the technique on a mammalian brain (which can, of course, be sustained as a living organ extracorporeally; ie an "isolated brain") is its complex vasculature and its sensitivity to the cytotoxicity of extant cryoprotectants. Nevertheless, since preservation of neural and synaptic connections has already been demonstrated by the existing protocol, it seems to me that a protocol that results in successful, reversible vitrification of a whole mammalian brain is inevitable.

Unfortunately, it's extremely difficult to guess how far away we might be from successful CNS re-connection (in even the most simple mammal), though it's worth mentioning that there are countless dollars and scientists invested right now to make that a reality, and there *has* actually been some limited success on this front in the last few years (ie; mice able to exert nervous control of extremities after the spinal cord has been severed).

"it's extremely difficult to

"it's extremely difficult to guess how far away we might be from..."

20 years. Everything is always only 20 years away. Did you choose the name Taurus because of all of the bullshit you spread around?

> Unfortunately, it's

> Unfortunately, it's extremely difficult to guess how far
> away we might be from successful CNS re-connection. . .

Oh, all we need is Nanotechnology and a little Rustoleum.

Well, maybe a lot of Rustoleum. ;->

http://www.allpar.com/history/auto-shows/time-capsule.html

Don't let your tires go flat!

Wow, Jim, are you a

Wow, Jim, are you a 'strategic philosopher'? You cetainly could play one on TV! :)

Allusions to Illusions

The only person alluding to such preposterous nonsense is you.

I made the observation that exchanges with Robot Cultic True Believers devolve into robotically (heh) swapped charges of "I know you are but what am I?" and you respond, Taurus, in a surprise move, more or less by charging, "I know you are but what am I?"

Perhaps we can move beyond this joyless ritual and also beyond your curious complaint that I am demanding uncritical obedience as some sort of authority ("cuz Dale sez so!") when I am simply insisting on skepticism of pseudo-scientific aspirations and exposing phony authorities, which seems a rather strange pathway to gathering an army of uncritical slave minions. But I guess lots of things might start to look that way when you spend too much time among Robot Cultists, even if you yourself are merely, er, Robo-Adjacent as you seem to want to insist.

Rather than stridently assert my conclusions, howzabout this? Anyone who can use the google can look up "transhumanism", "cryonics", "uploading", "cyberangels", "mindfiles", "indefinite lifespan", "desktop nanofactories", "utility fog", "singularity", "friendly AI", "order of cosmic engineers", "terasem", "cryonet", "alcor", "IEET", "SIAI", "Singularity U", "Future of Humanity Institute", "Lifeboat Foundation", "Society of Venturism" and then they will notice whether or not certain names pop up over and over again (I wonder, do you wonder, Taurus, how often your name might appear in such searches?) and they will also notice whether or not people claiming to be champions of science seem to be drawn not once but time after time after time to marginal/ pseudo-scientific enterprises connected to would-be gurus promising transcendent outcomes -- immortality, superpowers, superintelligence, superabundance -- and whether or not I am the only one to propose these outcomes look a lot like magical thinking, religiosity, pseudo-science, nerd rapture, New Age transcendence translated into a superficially techno-scientific vocabulary aimed at fandoms of pop-tech pop-sci journalism/ marketing/ scams. All it takes is the google, Taurus, and all these "nonsensical allusions" you seek to sanewash away may immediately and obviously and overabundantly appear at anybody's fingertips. Deny away! I am content to let people see for themselves what your sooper-science friends claim to be up to in their own words.

Post new comment

The content of this field is kept private and will not be shown publicly.
By submitting this form, you accept the Mollom privacy policy.